Urban Hellenistos - Latest Comments

Re: Ruadhan’s Further Adventures in Over-Thinking Pagan Identity Crisis 2011 — NOW WITH GRAPHS!!!

Ruadhán J McElroy — Thu, 09 Feb 2012 17:19:15 -0000

1) This blog is no longer being used. Please take all new comments to the one that is, as I will be closing comments here shortly. Thanks.

2) The fact of the matter is, the word "queer" does NOT have the exact same history, or even sort of history as "pagan", and furthermore, as I've made very clear, I will resign to using the word "pagan" on occasion. The root of "queer" is the German "quer", meaning "at an angle, traverse", and its initial use in English meant "strange". That describes me. "Pagan" does not describe me, outside of the anthropological sense as an umbrella term for any non-Abrahamic religion.

Re: Ruadhan’s Further Adventures in Over-Thinking Pagan Identity Crisis 2011 — NOW WITH GRAPHS!!!

Amanda — Thu, 09 Feb 2012 16:53:51 -0000

I've been enjoying your blog for about an hour - and this is a particularly good post. I hope you choose to write in this blog again soon.

I am SO curious about something ... I noticed somewhere that you self-identify as "queer" - as do I - though I also self-identify as "pagan". My reasons for identifying as "queer" are the exact same as they are for identifying as "pagan". I think the term queer has the same sordid history as pagan - feeling the way you do about the term pagan, I wonder how you sort out your use of the self-identifying word queer in your brain.

Re: In Honour of International Pagan Coming-Out Day

Sun — Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:53:16 -0000

Come to Austin TX, you will fit right in! We have a huge gay/Pagan/urban agriculture-homestead community here.

Re: Shower Prayer to Asklepios & Hygaeia

Ruadhán J McElroy — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 14:01:24 -0000

Thanks!

Re: Shower Prayer to Asklepios & Hygaeia

Hal — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 13:46:51 -0000

What a beautiful ritual and meaningful to both Askepios and Hygaeia! I also will be using this ritual. You are an inspiration!

Re: Painting

Elle Hull — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 05:40:19 -0000

Hi Ruadhan! Did you finish your painting of Britannia? She is a Goddess close to my heart and would love to see your vision of Her! - Elle

Re: The United $tates os not a Christian Nation

Ruadhán J McElroy — Sun, 31 Jul 2011 20:26:35 -0000

I don't personally honour Columbia, and while I definitely see issue with the manner and some of the people who "revealed" Her image as a goddess (though the first instance of regarding Her as a goddess, poetically, was nearly a century prior to her first appearances in paintings, by the educated slave/poet Phillis Wheatley), that doesn't make Her existence as a tutelary goddess of Amerikans any less real or any more a "mere thought-form". As far as I'm concerned, She's just another one of many deities revealed in the same manner as the Greco-Roman mega-pantheon that I don't personally honour.

Re: The United $tates os not a Christian Nation

Sarah Helena — Sun, 31 Jul 2011 20:04:18 -0000

And this is amazing. The painting and the mere existence of Columbia is wonderful.

Re: The United $tates os not a Christian Nation

Sarah Helena — Sun, 31 Jul 2011 20:02:49 -0000

Here in Brazil there's a permanent flame in our independence monument... if I had a car, I will take fire there to bring fire home to Hestia.

Re: A pair of quotes

Ruadhán J McElroy — Sun, 31 Jul 2011 14:28:47 -0000

Can't say I'm surprised.

And last I'd heard, he was single, self-identified as gay, twenty, and (most importantly) had no kids. It's always the people who have no kids who think they can freely dispense parenting advice, isn't it?

Re: A pair of quotes

Bluefirewitch — Sun, 31 Jul 2011 14:09:51 -0000

This same individual, Apollodoros, called me a bad mother because I practice differently than he.

Re: Ruadhan’s Further Adventures in Over-Thinking Pagan Identity Crisis 2011 — NOW WITH GRAPHS!!!

Ruadhán J McElroy — Wed, 01 Jun 2011 17:15:42 -0000

By the way, your site made itself disappear. How? And I don't like that trick! Bad site trick!

Re: Ruadhan’s Further Adventures in Over-Thinking Pagan Identity Crisis 2011 — NOW WITH GRAPHS!!!

Ruadhán J McElroy — Wed, 01 Jun 2011 17:14:00 -0000

You're welcome. :-) Glad you enjoyed it.

Re: Ruadhan’s Further Adventures in Over-Thinking Pagan Identity Crisis 2011 — NOW WITH GRAPHS!!!

Ruby Sara — Wed, 01 Jun 2011 15:17:49 -0000

This is a great post, thank you!

Re: Ruadhan’s Further Adventures in Over-Thinking Pagan Identity Crisis 2011 — NOW WITH GRAPHS!!!

Ruadhán J McElroy — Wed, 01 Jun 2011 13:32:25 -0000

You just say that cos I made a graph. :-D

Re: Ruadhan’s Further Adventures in Over-Thinking Pagan Identity Crisis 2011 — NOW WITH GRAPHS!!!

Drew Jacob — Wed, 01 Jun 2011 11:44:45 -0000

Incredible analysis. This was a fun read, Ruadhan.

Re: Ruadhan’s Further Adventures in Over-Thinking Pagan Identity Crisis 2011 — NOW WITH GRAPHS!!!

Nornoriel — Wed, 01 Jun 2011 04:31:06 -0000

"Stop defining themselves negatively. Define themselves by what they ARE, not by some vague word that simply tells people what they ARE NOT."

EXACTLY.

Re: Ruadhan’s Further Adventures in Over-Thinking Pagan Identity Crisis 2011 — NOW WITH GRAPHS!!!

Ruadhán J McElroy — Wed, 01 Jun 2011 01:55:41 -0000

See, I really love etymology and word history, so I never felt especially attached to the word, even in the odd arguments I once-upon-a-time had with Hellenes in modern Hellas who absolutely disown it, I'd always acknowledge that their claims of the word's history was valid (at least when it actually was), but then concede that all their knowledge of etymology doesn't add up to a hill of beans when interacting with Abrahamists or those amongst the English-First-Language Hellenes who self-identify with the word. In retrospect, I feel like I was simply an apologist for bullying in those instances, and I feel it was wrong; all I can say in defence of that past behaviour was that I didn't mean to come across that way, but even I know intent isn't magical when one's actions end up contributing to hurt.

The pagan community is full of faults, and it's sad that so many will either ignore those faults or simply make lacklustre apologies for them when it'll do more re-world good to work on changing what's wrong. I know it's not all going to get fixed overnight, and in the quest to make improvements, "new problems" will be made apparent —be they genuinely new or just problems that lurked behind the sofa the whole time— but surely some work at change is better than sitting on one's hands and pretending it'll all work itself out.

I definitely think one of the changes that can be for the greater good is for all religions currently "united" under that loosely-defined umbrella word to... what? Ah yes: Stop defining themselves negatively. Define themselves by what they ARE, not by some vague word that simply tells people what they ARE NOT. Especially when the word has such a history of an "Us vs Them" paradigm that it's practically impossible to divorce that kind of thinking from its use, especially at the point in time.

Re: Ruadhan’s Further Adventures in Over-Thinking Pagan Identity Crisis 2011 — NOW WITH GRAPHS!!!

Nornoriel — Wed, 01 Jun 2011 00:50:42 -0000

"I have to agree with Mr Jacob’s follow-up post: That’s bullying,"

I agree 110%.

"while I am supportive of the socio-political goals of the pagan community, and have respect for several self-defined pagans, both as personal friends and as distant figures I read about, I cannot, in good conscience, say that I or what I do is “pagan” any more than I can apply that term to another person or their religion."

Yep, again why I've increasingly been leaving behind "Pagan" as a label and either saying "Druid" or "Brythonic polytheist", depending on who I'm talking to. The word is too vague to really be useful, it's ill-fitting for the quirks of my particular practice at best, and if anything, the more people want to push a word on me with bullying tactics the more likely I am to be a contrarian and butt my head that much harder saying "NO I AM NOT X". The pressure I've seen within the Pagan community to get people to unite under some watered-down umbrella label, or jump on the latest bandwagon of "eschew this holiday" or "don't shop here" if you want to be A Real Pagan - completely stomach-turning. It's damn time more people said ENOUGH ALREADY.

Re: More on the word “Pagan” and the Inter-Pagan&Polytheist community

Ruadhán J McElroy — Mon, 30 May 2011 05:55:03 -0000

I've never been actively involved with antifa groups, but an old TradSkin friend of mine in Virginia had a cricket bat with "Neo-Naz [pronounced like 'Naht'] Nockr" burned into it, and used to go around with others looking to go bonehead-bashing. I've also had friends who've been active Red Skins.

I'm with you, the casual acceptance of fascism and right-wing nationalism amaze and perplex me. Even "Left-wing nationalism" isn't an idea promoted by Marx (thus has a highly questionable place in Socialism, at most) and, if taken to extremes, leads to Stalin — who, debateably, wasn't even a Socialist or Communist, but a Totalitarian utilising what little of Marx he agreed with to rise to power. In theory, I don't even have a problem with defining what it means to be of X-Nation, I have a problem with people who choose to define X-Nation on ultimately meaningless, and often harmful basis. Seriously, though: The only good any Fascist has ever done for a society was Mussolini extending voting rights to women — but his belief that a woman's primary function in a society is child-bearing, his financial incentives to women who produced large families, and instituting of policies to reduce the employment of women kind of makes that deed ring hollow.

It all comes back around to the words we use to describe ourselves: Sure, I'll buy that Fascism doesn't begin and end with Mussolini, but when I see some-one claiming to align themselves with a brand of Fascism, they must realise that the words and deeds of that man are surely are the forefront of what many people think of when they think Fascism. At that, there are then two options: Live with that potentially-false mental image, or spend the rest of your life explaining why One's Own Fascism is "actually" somehow better than that. I don't see a lot of people trying to explain themselves. And really, it's like my friend Karl once said of Boyd Rice: You can't get to a certain age and seriously expect people to believe you're somehow "not a Nazi" or "not a Fascist" while you're shrouding yourself in that imagery -- if you get to that age and are still doing that, then either you're rock-stupid, or you agree with what it stands for on a deep level.

Re: More on the word “Pagan” and the Inter-Pagan&Polytheist community

Nornoriel — Mon, 30 May 2011 02:53:49 -0000

So much I agree with in this post, I don't know where to begin.

...Over the last few months I've largely stopped identifying as Pagan, myself, because I find I have very little in common with "the Pagan community"; like you, there are some blogs I continue to enjoy, and goals I continue to support. But I'm a revival Druid, and I find using the more general "Pagan" as an umbrella label causes more problems than it solves. I do continue to occasionally use the word as a concession, and ultimately, the gods don't care what word we use or don't use to call ourselves, but I find myself growing tired of the word as a self-identifier even as I have the odd occasion to use it.

Also, some disclosure: I used to be involved in antifa when I was in my late teens, early twenties; I gave a few deserving people the Doc Marten Dental Plan back in the day. I've settled down quite a bit, but it amazes me how casually accepting a number of Pagans (and especially recons) have become of ideas like fascism. I won't name any names here, and it's more than one person, but I find it vile and disgusting, and I'm really glad to see another person speak out openly as a supporter of the SHARPS. Just ended this old lady's weekend on a nostalgic smile. :)

Re: So, I’m really not that invested in the term “Pagan”, eh?

Ruadhán J McElroy — Sun, 29 May 2011 20:13:06 -0000

[nods] Yeah, I kind of give up a little early with people on explaining what "polytheism" means, and one time, I even repeated the word three or four times, but the woman kept hearing "atheist" until I enunciated ve-ry slow-ly, llike "no, Pol-Y-Thee-Ist; as in 'the belief in many gods and goddesses'," and her response? "Oh, you mean pagan."

That's seriously the main reason why I feel I've "conceded" to using "pagan" in self-identification: It's not my favourite word, I recognise many distinct characteristics between what I do and what (especially) many self-identified "pagans" who aren't very active on-line will do to the point where I figure it's best that we seldom mix (at least religiously), but it's when I communicate with people who aren't of Hellenic polytheist paths, and who aren't part of the pan-Pagan mega-community that "pagan" seems to have the most real-life use. It's not the most precise descriptive, but it's one that (at least in my experiences) is generally benign in urban and campus-dominated areas. I know in some rural parts of Michigan, even, to self-identify as "pagan" is to essentially self-identify as one of two main things: Either you're aligning yourself with certain kinds of spiritual/New Agey hippies, or you've pretty much called yourself a Satanist (this was all that got through to a lot of people in Lenawee and Hillsdale counties in the mid-1990s, when I danced with my own self-styled Celtic poly-re-the-struction-Druidism that, on reflection as an adult, looked more like what a few people I've seen who claim to practise an "unbroken Celtic tradition" do than what some of the CR people I've encountered do).

I've also encountered pagans who don't read or had at least never heard of The Wild Hunt, which I agree, seems to be one of the most (if not the most) popular pagan-focused news blogs -- you can tell how popular it is, if only cos the comments can often be as head-desky as The New York Post or somesuch! LOL I agree that the level of re-education on what "pagan" means still has a long way to trickle-down before it's thouroughly understood that "pagan" is most useful as an umbrella term for many different religious paths, and not a synonym for generic or DIY forms of Popular Wicca. THAT is where this all gets frustrating with the pagan community.

Re: So, I’m really not that invested in the term “Pagan”, eh?

Kaye — Sun, 29 May 2011 17:40:36 -0000

I have noticed that a lot of people are not familiar with the term as well, but I just say "polytheism means that one worships multiple deities" and they usually understand that.

It is true that the online community has seen some very good developments in communication among different Wicca-derived and polytheistic religions. However, I am very skeptical that this has trickled down to the real-world community. For each person who goes online and interacts with the community via forums, blogs, Twitter, or Facebook, there are probably a dozen whose only exposure consists of in-person meetups, community 'zines, and informal E-mail communication. Most of the pagans I know fall in this category. A lot of them don't even know what the Wild Hunt is, and that's one of the most popular general pagan blogs on the Internet.

Re: So, I’m really not that invested in the term “Pagan”, eh?

Ruadhán J McElroy — Sun, 29 May 2011 15:28:31 -0000

I'm still getting used to the differences in DisqUs as a commenting system -- but I am so much in love with the moderation-end of it. If I was a robot, it would be clunk-able.

I have so many really mixed feelings about this issue. On one hand, I can see some remaining usefulness in "pagan" as a vague label. I've also had a lot of experiences with people who know VERY little about suffixes and prefixes and root-words in the English language, and so the word "polytheist" has honestly puzzled them until I finally gave up and said "OK, whatever, forget that: I'm an ancient Greek-styled pagan" — I still feel the need to add a few modifiers to make it clear that I don't do Popular Wicca or somesuch, but that's what gets the point over to some people.

Ultimately, I do feel like, in many ways, I've simply "conceded" to the pagan community, because I have very little in common with most pagans. Now, there have been some great strides in "inter-Pagan" communication in the last few years, but I'm still very recon-oriented and a lot of what Drew Jacob noted about still feeling a disconnect from the "recon community" feels true for me, as well — my main differences with them feel easy to point out, but there's still a community Status Quo that many Big-R-Recons like to maintain that I feel kind of misses the point.

Re: So, I’m really not that invested in the term “Pagan”, eh?

Kaye — Sun, 29 May 2011 13:39:29 -0000

Okay, signing in apparently means posting now ... anyway, I think you've made a good point about the vagueness of the term "pagan." It is essentially useless to have an umbrella term that is too large to really tell you anything about what a person actually believes, experiences, or does. We tend to put labels on people to tell us more about them and to inform our social interactions, and this label does not seem to provide that any longer. (Whether it ever did in the first place is a completely different question.)